Discussion:
Documentation
(too old to reply)
Richard Acosta
2010-03-30 16:32:07 UTC
Permalink
I would like to get some documentation about graphical user interface
programming on Harbour.

I can't find anything about gtwvg and would like to start on GUI, but
i'm stuck. I've read a lot about using that library for programming gui
applications, but absolutely nothing about how to.
Pritpal Bedi
2010-03-30 20:28:52 UTC
Permalink
Hi



> I would like to get some documentation about graphical user interface
> programming on Harbour.
>
> I can't find anything about gtwvg and would like to start on GUI, but
> i'm stuck. I've read a lot about using that library for programming gui
> applications, but absolutely nothing about how to.


I did not wrote any documentation on GTWVG, the only source

on this topic is contrib/gtwvg/tests/demowvg.prg. It has everything

you need to start experimenting.

Regards

Pritpal Bedi, a student of software analysis and design
http://www.vouch.in | Vouch, the software that GROWS with you
http://www.vouch32.com | Home of Vouch32 ActiveX Server
http://www.vouchcac.com/vouch32/vouch32.htm | A Free Windows Extended
Utilities Library for Clipper, Xbase++ and (x)Harbour
http://www.help.vouch.info | Online Vouch Help
http://www.harbour.vouch.info | Online Harbour Help






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Richard Acosta
2010-03-31 05:11:59 UTC
Permalink
thanks for your answer.

The thing is, i'm bad at test & error, if there's nothing else i´ll go
for it, but thanks again.


El 30/03/2010 05:28 p.m., Pritpal Bedi escribió:
> Hi
>
>
>
>
>> I would like to get some documentation about graphical user interface
>> programming on Harbour.
>>
>> I can't find anything about gtwvg and would like to start on GUI, but
>> i'm stuck. I've read a lot about using that library for programming gui
>> applications, but absolutely nothing about how to.
>>
>
> I did not wrote any documentation on GTWVG, the only source
>
> on this topic is contrib/gtwvg/tests/demowvg.prg. It has everything
>
> you need to start experimenting.
>
> Regards
>
> Pritpal Bedi, a student of software analysis and design
> http://www.vouch.in | Vouch, the software that GROWS with you
> http://www.vouch32.com | Home of Vouch32 ActiveX Server
> http://www.vouchcac.com/vouch32/vouch32.htm | A Free Windows Extended
> Utilities Library for Clipper, Xbase++ and (x)Harbour
> http://www.help.vouch.info | Online Vouch Help
> http://www.harbour.vouch.info | Online Harbour Help
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox.
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID27925::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:032010_2_______________________________________________
> Harbour-users mailing list (attachment size limit: 40KB)
> Harbour-users-pG8skwman+OtlBvVaVFjCkB+***@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.harbour-project.org/mailman/listinfo/harbour-users
>
>
Richard Acosta
2010-05-20 15:32:09 UTC
Permalink
Hello again.

I keep complaining about the same over and over.

I can't find feet and head watching the whole code at the same place, it
is hard for me to track it down as i could find talking to other people,
is still too hard for many.

This time, as a suggestion. Pritpal, when you could make some time for
it, please, write a manual, a reference guide or something alike. Your
tool as i've seen is a very powerfull one, but too hard to track the code.
I'm still stuck on procedural programming, so it's harder to me to track
OOp.

At this moment i'm printing demowvg.prg and start cutting it to see if i
can track things better, but i guess is not the ideal approach to have a
wall with paper pieces only to try to follow some code.

I have the best intentions, if i could make anything to help, i would.

Best regards.

.



El 30/03/2010 05:28 p.m., Pritpal Bedi escribió:
> Hi
>
>
>
>
>> I would like to get some documentation about graphical user interface
>> programming on Harbour.
>>
>> I can't find anything about gtwvg and would like to start on GUI, but
>> i'm stuck. I've read a lot about using that library for programming gui
>> applications, but absolutely nothing about how to.
>>
>
> I did not wrote any documentation on GTWVG, the only source
>
> on this topic is contrib/gtwvg/tests/demowvg.prg. It has everything
>
> you need to start experimenting.
>
> Regards
>
> Pritpal Bedi, a student of software analysis and design
> http://www.vouch.in | Vouch, the software that GROWS with you
> http://www.vouch32.com | Home of Vouch32 ActiveX Server
> http://www.vouchcac.com/vouch32/vouch32.htm | A Free Windows Extended
> Utilities Library for Clipper, Xbase++ and (x)Harbour
> http://www.help.vouch.info | Online Vouch Help
> http://www.harbour.vouch.info | Online Harbour Help
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox.
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID27925::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:032010_2_______________________________________________
> Harbour-users mailing list (attachment size limit: 40KB)
> Harbour-users-pG8skwman+OtlBvVaVFjCkB+***@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.harbour-project.org/mailman/listinfo/harbour-users
>
>
Richard Acosta
2010-05-20 15:58:22 UTC
Permalink
At this moment, i am at 35 pages, and about 1500 lines of code of about
4500 lines of code... so this sample program is about 135/140 pages...
¿how to track anything?



El 30/03/2010 05:28 p.m., Pritpal Bedi escribió:
> Hi
>
>
>
>
>> I would like to get some documentation about graphical user interface
>> programming on Harbour.
>>
>> I can't find anything about gtwvg and would like to start on GUI, but
>> i'm stuck. I've read a lot about using that library for programming gui
>> applications, but absolutely nothing about how to.
>>
>
> I did not wrote any documentation on GTWVG, the only source
>
> on this topic is contrib/gtwvg/tests/demowvg.prg. It has everything
>
> you need to start experimenting.
>
> Regards
>
> Pritpal Bedi, a student of software analysis and design
> http://www.vouch.in | Vouch, the software that GROWS with you
> http://www.vouch32.com | Home of Vouch32 ActiveX Server
> http://www.vouchcac.com/vouch32/vouch32.htm | A Free Windows Extended
> Utilities Library for Clipper, Xbase++ and (x)Harbour
> http://www.help.vouch.info | Online Vouch Help
> http://www.harbour.vouch.info | Online Harbour Help
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox.
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID27925::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:032010_2_______________________________________________
> Harbour-users mailing list (attachment size limit: 40KB)
> Harbour-users-pG8skwman+OtlBvVaVFjCkB+***@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.harbour-project.org/mailman/listinfo/harbour-users
>
>
Pritpal Bedi
2010-05-20 16:07:46 UTC
Permalink
Hi



> At this moment, i am at 35 pages, and about 1500 lines of code of about
> 4500 lines of code... so this sample program is about 135/140 pages...
> ¿how to track anything?

Simple,

don't track anything...


Regards

Pritpal Bedi, a student of software analysis and design
http://www.vouch.in | Vouch, the software that GROWS with you
http://www.vouch32.com | Home of Vouch32 ActiveX Server
http://www.vouchcac.com/vouch32/vouch32.htm | A Free Windows Extended
Utilities Library for Clipper, Xbase++ and (x)Harbour
http://www.help.vouch.info | Online Vouch Help
http://www.harbour.vouch.info | Online Harbour Help







_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.
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Richard Acosta
2010-05-25 15:09:44 UTC
Permalink
How could i know how to make things work with gtwvg?...

Are you suggesting me to not use gtwvg?


El 20/05/2010 01:07 p.m., Pritpal Bedi escribió:
> Hi
>
>
>
>
>> At this moment, i am at 35 pages, and about 1500 lines of code of about
>> 4500 lines of code... so this sample program is about 135/140 pages...
>> ¿how to track anything?
>>
> Simple,
>
> don't track anything...
>
>
> Regards
>
> Pritpal Bedi, a student of software analysis and design
> http://www.vouch.in | Vouch, the software that GROWS with you
> http://www.vouch32.com | Home of Vouch32 ActiveX Server
> http://www.vouchcac.com/vouch32/vouch32.htm | A Free Windows Extended
> Utilities Library for Clipper, Xbase++ and (x)Harbour
> http://www.help.vouch.info | Online Vouch Help
> http://www.harbour.vouch.info | Online Harbour Help
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5_______________________________________________
> Harbour-users mailing list (attachment size limit: 40KB)
> Harbour-users-pG8skwman+OtlBvVaVFjCkB+***@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.harbour-project.org/mailman/listinfo/harbour-users
>
>
Massimo Belgrano
2010-05-25 16:28:25 UTC
Permalink
you can easy convert your source to gui adding a similar template

so you can maintain your source whith little modification


and then start adding gui element

in systax compatible with xbp but with vgw prefix


Please revise my untested source


// hbmk2 sample.prg -gtwvg -gui

REQUEST HB_GT_WVG_DEFAULT

REQUEST HB_GT_WVG

#INCLUDE "HBGTINFO.CH"
function main
set color to "N/W,N/BG,,,N/W*"
cls

SETMODE(25,80)

hb_gtInfo( HB_GTI_ICONFILE, "sample.ico" )
hb_gtInfo( HB_GTI_WINTITLE, "Programm Title" )
Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_SELECTCOPY,.T.)
Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_RESIZABLE, .T. )
HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_CLOSABLE, .T. )

HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_RESIZABLE, .T. )

HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_CODEPAGE, 255 )

Hb_GTInfo(HB_GTI_MOUSESTATUS, 1 )

screenHeight:= HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_SCREENWIDTH, HB_GTINFO(
HB_GTI_DESKTOPWIDTH ) )

screenHeight:HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_SCREENHEIGHT, HB_GTINFO(
HB_GTI_DESKTOPHEIGHT ) - 50 )

*SETMODE( GTINFO( GTI_DESKTOPROWS ) - 5, GTINFO( GTI_DESKTOPCOLS ) )

HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTNAME, "Courier New")

HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTQUALITY,HB_GTI_FONTQ_HIGH )

if screenWidth >= 1920

Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 21 )

HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 40)

ELSEIF screenWidth >= 1600 // 1280 *960

Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 18 )

HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 32)

elseif screenWidth >= 1280 // 1280 *960

Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 13 )

HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 20) // 15*80=1200
36*25=900

elseif screenWidth >= 1024 // 1024*760

Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 12.5 )

HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 20)

elseif screenWidth >= 800

Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 10 )

HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 18)

ELSE

Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 14 )

HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 8)

ENDIF



return


2010/5/25 Richard Acosta <eyelagui-***@public.gmane.org>

> How could i know how to make things work with gtwvg?...
>
> Are you suggesting me to not use gtwvg?
>
>
> El 20/05/2010 01:07 p.m., Pritpal Bedi escribió:
>
> Hi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> At this moment, i am at 35 pages, and about 1500 lines of code of about
>>> 4500 lines of code... so this sample program is about 135/140 pages...
>>> ¿how to track anything?
>>>
>>>
>> Simple,
>>
>> don't track anything...
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
--
Massimo Belgrano
Richard Acosta
2010-05-26 04:06:45 UTC
Permalink
What is xbp syntax?



El 25/05/2010 01:28 p.m., Massimo Belgrano escribió:
> you can easy convert your source to gui adding a similar template
>
> so you can maintain your source whith little modification
>
>
> and then start adding gui element
>
> in systax compatible with xbp but with vgw prefix
>
>
> Please revise my untested source
>
>
> // hbmk2 sample.prg -gtwvg -gui
>
> REQUEST HB_GT_WVG_DEFAULT
>
> REQUEST HB_GT_WVG
>
> #INCLUDE "HBGTINFO.CH"
> function main
> set color to "N/W,N/BG,,,N/W*"
> cls
>
> SETMODE(25,80)
>
> hb_gtInfo( HB_GTI_ICONFILE, "sample.ico" )
> hb_gtInfo( HB_GTI_WINTITLE, "Programm Title" )
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_SELECTCOPY,.T.)
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_RESIZABLE, .T. )
> HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_CLOSABLE, .T. )
>
> HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_RESIZABLE, .T. )
>
> HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_CODEPAGE, 255 )
>
> Hb_GTInfo(HB_GTI_MOUSESTATUS, 1 )
>
> screenHeight:= HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_SCREENWIDTH, HB_GTINFO(
> HB_GTI_DESKTOPWIDTH ) )
>
> screenHeight:HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_SCREENHEIGHT, HB_GTINFO(
> HB_GTI_DESKTOPHEIGHT ) - 50 )
>
> *SETMODE( GTINFO( GTI_DESKTOPROWS ) - 5, GTINFO( GTI_DESKTOPCOLS ) )
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTNAME, "Courier New")
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTQUALITY,HB_GTI_FONTQ_HIGH )
>
> if screenWidth>= 1920
>
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 21 )
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 40)
>
> ELSEIF screenWidth>= 1600 // 1280 *960
>
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 18 )
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 32)
>
> elseif screenWidth>= 1280 // 1280 *960
>
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 13 )
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 20) // 15*80=1200
> 36*25=900
>
> elseif screenWidth>= 1024 // 1024*760
>
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 12.5 )
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 20)
>
> elseif screenWidth>= 800
>
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 10 )
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 18)
>
> ELSE
>
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 14 )
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 8)
>
> ENDIF
>
>
>
> return
>
>
> 2010/5/25 Richard Acosta<eyelagui-***@public.gmane.org>
>
>
>> How could i know how to make things work with gtwvg?...
>>
>> Are you suggesting me to not use gtwvg?
>>
>>
>> El 20/05/2010 01:07 p.m., Pritpal Bedi escribió:
>>
>> Hi
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> At this moment, i am at 35 pages, and about 1500 lines of code of about
>>>> 4500 lines of code... so this sample program is about 135/140 pages...
>>>> ¿how to track anything?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Simple,
>>>
>>> don't track anything...
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>>
>>>
Richard Acosta
2010-05-26 04:45:28 UTC
Permalink
Ok, i checked the code, compiled and modifyed, but i'm receiving the
same ressults no matters wich font i put, no mathers what screen mode i
tell, there comes always a screen the same size with the same font on it.
This is the part of the code i modified:

SETMODE(20,25) // (25,50),(25,80),(etc..)
.
.
.
HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTNAME, "Verdana") ("Trebuchet MS") (etc..)

So... where can i find some info./manual/reference to study what's wrong
or what's the correct way to do it? other than asking and asking and
asking and asking.... that makes so much people get upset and give so
many useless answers.

Why people makes things available without info.?
Is there some sort of game? "i'm smart and you're an idiot, so this is
the proof, you cant undestand me"...

If i find a piece of code where i can track some stuff, ok, i may learn
something and ask whatever i cant understand.
If i find several smallest code files, each with only 1 small function
procedure or wathever to see how it works... the better, maybe i have
not to ask.
But this way, where there is no documentation, there is a bunch of code
and "loose words" as explanations, come on... it seems you do it on
purpose to avoid others to understand.

If it is so easy why not give a complete answer?
If it is so simple why not make some reference documentation to help others?


Come on men... how do you think Harbour is going to survive or get
anywhere without giving others the chance to learn about?
Is this just a workaround until the time all of you retire so you have
not to learn or develop a new compiler?

Did you all learn programming just by watching tons of sensless code
from others?

Should give my 4 y/o son a book and tell "guess how to read"?


Regards.



El 25/05/2010 01:28 p.m., Massimo Belgrano escribió:
> you can easy convert your source to gui adding a similar template
>
> so you can maintain your source whith little modification
>
>
> and then start adding gui element
>
> in systax compatible with xbp but with vgw prefix
>
>
> Please revise my untested source
>
>
> // hbmk2 sample.prg -gtwvg -gui
>
> REQUEST HB_GT_WVG_DEFAULT
>
> REQUEST HB_GT_WVG
>
> #INCLUDE "HBGTINFO.CH"
> function main
> set color to "N/W,N/BG,,,N/W*"
> cls
>
> SETMODE(25,80)
>
> hb_gtInfo( HB_GTI_ICONFILE, "sample.ico" )
> hb_gtInfo( HB_GTI_WINTITLE, "Programm Title" )
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_SELECTCOPY,.T.)
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_RESIZABLE, .T. )
> HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_CLOSABLE, .T. )
>
> HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_RESIZABLE, .T. )
>
> HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_CODEPAGE, 255 )
>
> Hb_GTInfo(HB_GTI_MOUSESTATUS, 1 )
>
> screenHeight:= HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_SCREENWIDTH, HB_GTINFO(
> HB_GTI_DESKTOPWIDTH ) )
>
> screenHeight:HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_SCREENHEIGHT, HB_GTINFO(
> HB_GTI_DESKTOPHEIGHT ) - 50 )
>
> *SETMODE( GTINFO( GTI_DESKTOPROWS ) - 5, GTINFO( GTI_DESKTOPCOLS ) )
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTNAME, "Courier New")
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTQUALITY,HB_GTI_FONTQ_HIGH )
>
> if screenWidth>= 1920
>
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 21 )
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 40)
>
> ELSEIF screenWidth>= 1600 // 1280 *960
>
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 18 )
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 32)
>
> elseif screenWidth>= 1280 // 1280 *960
>
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 13 )
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 20) // 15*80=1200
> 36*25=900
>
> elseif screenWidth>= 1024 // 1024*760
>
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 12.5 )
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 20)
>
> elseif screenWidth>= 800
>
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 10 )
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 18)
>
> ELSE
>
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 14 )
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 8)
>
> ENDIF
>
>
>
> return
>
>
> 2010/5/25 Richard Acosta<eyelagui-***@public.gmane.org>
>
>
>> How could i know how to make things work with gtwvg?...
>>
>> Are you suggesting me to not use gtwvg?
>>
>>
>> El 20/05/2010 01:07 p.m., Pritpal Bedi escribió:
>>
>> Hi
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> At this moment, i am at 35 pages, and about 1500 lines of code of about
>>>> 4500 lines of code... so this sample program is about 135/140 pages...
>>>> ¿how to track anything?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Simple,
>>>
>>> don't track anything...
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>>
>>>
Massimo Belgrano
2010-05-26 07:10:06 UTC
Permalink
Hi Richard

Follow is my information and suggestion

harbour not have jet documentation (is in harbour\doc) because not have
found any developer able to make good documentation, i invite you and
everybody to participate at harbour project writing documentation. mailing
will Developer collaborate to this project giving valuable information
Harbour will be a good professional experience with one of most powerful and
advanced language

If you want kow harbour The principal source or information is source
code,changelog and developer mailing list
http://www.harbour-project.org/mailing.html
I have collect same info in my blog http://harbourlanguage.blogspot.com/


Find in prg files in harbour repository and you can find the explain
In this way you can Learn by example like entire harbour community
Harbour is 100% compatible with clipper so you can use any clipper
documentation

When you have a problem try post a sample that explain instead of describe
source code is better that 1000 word because no native English speaking
source code is understand to 100% English test 20%


You can find A commercial product sell for 49 $ the "xHarbour Language
Reference Guide" is very good product also if is 2 year old( I have read
about idea of an upgrade)
https://secure.xharbour.com/order%20online/order.asp?page=index&show_h=2&=



Sorry for my bad English and happy Harbour





2010/5/26 Richard Acosta <eyelagui-***@public.gmane.org>
>
> Ok, i checked the code, compiled and modifyed, but i'm receiving the same
ressults no matters wich font i put, no mathers what screen mode i tell,
there comes always a screen the same size with the same font on it.
> This is the part of the code i modified:
>
> SETMODE(20,25) // (25,50),(25,80),(etc..)
> .
> .
> .
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTNAME, "Verdana") ("Trebuchet MS") (etc..)
>
> So... where can i find some info./manual/reference to study what's wrong
or what's the correct way to do it? other than asking and asking and asking
and asking.... that makes so much people get upset and give so many useless
answers.
>
> Why people makes things available without info.?
> Is there some sort of game? "i'm smart and you're an idiot, so this is the
proof, you cant undestand me"...
>
> If i find a piece of code where i can track some stuff, ok, i may learn
something and ask whatever i cant understand.
> If i find several smallest code files, each with only 1 small function
procedure or wathever to see how it works... the better, maybe i have not to
ask.
> But this way, where there is no documentation, there is a bunch of code
and "loose words" as explanations, come on... it seems you do it on purpose
to avoid others to understand.
>
> If it is so easy why not give a complete answer?
> If it is so simple why not make some reference documentation to help
others?
>
>
> Come on men... how do you think Harbour is going to survive or get
anywhere without giving others the chance to learn about?
> Is this just a workaround until the time all of you retire so you have not
to learn or develop a new compiler?
>
> Did you all learn programming just by watching tons of sensless code from
others?
>
> Should give my 4 y/o son a book and tell "guess how to read"?
>
>
> Regards.
>
>
>
> El 25/05/2010 01:28 p.m., Massimo Belgrano escribió:
>>
>> you can easy convert your source to gui adding a similar template
>>
>> so you can maintain your source whith little modification
>>
>>
>> and then start adding gui element
>>
>> in systax compatible with xbp but with vgw prefix
>>
>>
>> Please revise my untested source
>>
>>
>> // hbmk2 sample.prg -gtwvg -gui
>>
>> REQUEST HB_GT_WVG_DEFAULT
>>
>> REQUEST HB_GT_WVG
>>
>> #INCLUDE "HBGTINFO.CH"
>> function main
>> set color to "N/W,N/BG,,,N/W*"
>> cls
>>
>> SETMODE(25,80)
>>
>> hb_gtInfo( HB_GTI_ICONFILE, "sample.ico" )
>> hb_gtInfo( HB_GTI_WINTITLE, "Programm Title" )
>> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_SELECTCOPY,.T.)
>> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_RESIZABLE, .T. )
>> HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_CLOSABLE, .T. )
>>
>> HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_RESIZABLE, .T. )
>>
>> HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_CODEPAGE, 255 )
>>
>> Hb_GTInfo(HB_GTI_MOUSESTATUS, 1 )
>>
>> screenHeight:= HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_SCREENWIDTH, HB_GTINFO(
>> HB_GTI_DESKTOPWIDTH ) )
>>
>> screenHeight:HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_SCREENHEIGHT, HB_GTINFO(
>> HB_GTI_DESKTOPHEIGHT ) - 50 )
>>
>> *SETMODE( GTINFO( GTI_DESKTOPROWS ) - 5, GTINFO( GTI_DESKTOPCOLS ) )
>>
>> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTNAME, "Courier New")
>>
>> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTQUALITY,HB_GTI_FONTQ_HIGH )
>>
>> if screenWidth>= 1920
>>
>> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 21 )
>>
>> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 40)
>>
>> ELSEIF screenWidth>= 1600 // 1280 *960
>>
>> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 18 )
>>
>> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 32)
>>
>> elseif screenWidth>= 1280 // 1280 *960
>>
>> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 13 )
>>
>> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 20) // 15*80=1200
>> 36*25=900
>>
>> elseif screenWidth>= 1024 // 1024*760
>>
>> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 12.5 )
>>
>> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 20)
>>
>> elseif screenWidth>= 800
>>
>> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 10 )
>>
>> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 18)
>>
>> ELSE
>>
>> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 14 )
>>
>> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 8)
>>
>> ENDIF
>>
>>
>>
>> return
>>
>>
>> 2010/5/25 Richard Acosta<eyelagui-***@public.gmane.org>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> How could i know how to make things work with gtwvg?...
>>>
>>> Are you suggesting me to not use gtwvg?
>>>
>>>
>>> El 20/05/2010 01:07 p.m., Pritpal Bedi escribió:
>>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>>>
>>>>



--
Massimo Belgrano
Angel Pais
2010-05-26 13:52:54 UTC
Permalink
This is a open source project.
If you find lack of documentation you are invited to write it.
You can give something instead of whining about voluntary work done by
others.
If you don't like Harbour there are commercial alternatives where you
can demmand for what you've paid.
Danny
2010-05-26 15:31:27 UTC
Permalink
Angel Pais ha scritto:
> This is a open source project.
> If you find lack of documentation you are invited to write it.
> You can give something instead of whining about voluntary work done by
> others.
> If you don't like Harbour there are commercial alternatives where you
> can demmand for what you've paid.
>
> _______________________________________________
Angel,
while I substancially must agree with the general sense of your post,
this is not an answer.
And it's quite rude and does not help any newcomers. Moreover, it can
cause people not to look into Harbour Project at all and stay away from it.
We all -I think- love Harbour not only because it's free, but because it
has some value DESPITE the fact that it's free.
The lack of documentation IS a problem, and you can't simply tell a new
user "do-it-yourself and if you don't like it fuck yourself."
Please if you can't be of any help avoid to write at all, this is not
the spirit of this mailing list.
Dan
Massimo Belgrano
2010-05-26 16:29:02 UTC
Permalink
Is very difficult having right word
Harbour have incomplete documentation but i hope that same English spoken
people will help producing in future
Without documentation harbour will be used learning from his sample and
reading developer mailing list.
hbide have a powerful search in file function that allow me find any
information (in c:h\arbour and subdir) for use part of harbour that i don't
know when i need.
Here and in developer mailing list all user give a reply , good or
bad. Hbide is written in harbour and is a demonstration of how much
powerfull is harbour http://harbourlanguage.blogspot.com/
The spirit is right must be help us for what be possible to use the most
good language with the documentation with inverse proportional good


--
Massimo Belgrano
Angel Pais
2010-05-26 17:47:38 UTC
Permalink
El 26/05/2010 12:31, Danny escribió:
> Angel Pais ha scritto:
>> This is a open source project.
>> If you find lack of documentation you are invited to write it.
>> You can give something instead of whining about voluntary work done by
>> others.
>> If you don't like Harbour there are commercial alternatives where you
>> can demmand for what you've paid.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> Angel,
> while I substancially must agree with the general sense of your post,
> this is not an answer.
> And it's quite rude and does not help any newcomers. Moreover, it can
> cause people not to look into Harbour Project at all and stay away from it.
> We all -I think- love Harbour not only because it's free, but because it
> has some value DESPITE the fact that it's free.

Freedom (monetary) has nothing to do with it.


> The lack of documentation IS a problem

Maybe the truth is: Harbour is not ready for users not willing to put
some effort on it.

> and you can't simply tell a new user "do-it-yourself and if you don't like it fuck yourself."

You are tergiversing by words. And I don't have that kind of language.

Otherwise, It's a very valid answer.
Nobody has the right to ask anything from anybody here.
This package is the cummulative effort of a lot of programmers who have
donated their time and knowledge without asking anything on return.
Here nobody is selling anything and all contributiona are wellcome, be
it testing, reporting bugs, documenting, helping newcommers or
suggesting new features.
If it's not enought for you... I'm sorry.

> Please if you can't be of any help avoid to write at all, this is not
> the spirit of this mailing list.
> Dan

My help is to the good people on this list.
Whenever a troll appears is better to get rid of him as soon as possible.


Said that, I will shut my mouth from now on.
Pritpal Bedi
2010-05-26 23:04:22 UTC
Permalink
> > has some value DESPITE the fact that it's free.
>
> Freedom (monetary) has nothing to do with it.
>
>
> > The lack of documentation IS a problem
>
> Maybe the truth is: Harbour is not ready for users not willing to put
> some effort on it.
>
> > and you can't simply tell a new user "do-it-yourself and if you don't like it fuck yourself."
>
> You are tergiversing by words. And I don't have that kind of language.
>
> Otherwise, It's a very valid answer.
> Nobody has the right to ask anything from anybody here.
> This package is the cummulative effort of a lot of programmers who have
> donated their time and knowledge without asking anything on return.
> Here nobody is selling anything and all contributiona are wellcome, be
> it testing, reporting bugs, documenting, helping newcommers or
> suggesting new features.
> If it's not enought for you... I'm sorry.
>
> > Please if you can't be of any help avoid to write at all, this is not
> > the spirit of this mailing list.
> > Dan
>
> My help is to the good people on this list.
> Whenever a troll appears is better to get rid of him as soon as possible.
>
>
> Said that, I will shut my mouth from now on.


Very well said Angel.


Regards

Pritpal Bedi, a student of software analysis and design
http://www.vouch.in | Vouch, the software that GROWS with you
http://www.vouch32.com | Home of Vouch32 ActiveX Server
http://www.vouchcac.com/vouch32/vouch32.htm | A Free Windows Extended
Utilities Library for Clipper, Xbase++ and (x)Harbour
http://www.help.vouch.info | Online Vouch Help
http://www.harbour.vouch.info | Online Harbour Help





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pete_westg
2010-05-27 08:36:28 UTC
Permalink
στις 27/05/2010 02:04, O/H Pritpal Bedi έγραψε:

>
> Very well said Angel.
>

yeah, sure! "very well" and "very idealistic"..
(but please keep in mind that idealism is the container of fanaticism
-and of any obnoxious "-ism" in general. we don't need them any more.)
"asking" is not only a right, is the "creative trigger" for everything
being made by human race; and please don't confuse "asking" with
"demanding" nor "user" with "consumer". Into the subject now, maybe it's
difficult to understand and accept it but, "documenting" is more
valuable than "coding" itself. IMHO, documentation is (or must be) on
upper top, in the scale of open source priorities, since documents, or
better the lack of documents, is straightly against to the spirit of
open source initiative, because if open source, due to lack of
documents, is not easily understandable/self-learn-able, becomes
unusable to wider programmer-cycles and degenerates to a cryptic tool in
hands of an illuminated elite, less or not at all, different than closed
software. And this is a real problem with wider consequences than you
can imagine. Of course nobody can demand from developers to write
manuals. All that one could ask from them is to be, their coding, more
documentation friendly, ensuring this way that their valuable and very
respectable labor and creation won't go in vain..


---
Pete
Massimo Belgrano
2010-05-27 10:36:17 UTC
Permalink
I have read viktor reply and want explain a little different poinf of view
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.harbour.devel/31346

<http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.harbour.devel/31346>Many people
harbor many expectations, but at the same time is frustrated from being
stopped by trivial problems and not want post here his problem..
The group of harbor gave strong signs of life these days but also showed a
disease
Basically just a drop of evil in the muddy well, so the assessment of the
great work with harbor is blocked by incomplete documentation, so hi hope
that harbour find a way
In the meantime I advise everyone to buy the excellent documentation or
consult free online
http://www.xharbour.com/xhdn/referenceguide/index.asp?page=buydocumentation
<http://www.xharbour.com/xhdn/referenceguide/index.asp?page=buydocumentation>with
this cooperation we can have better guide because will be released new
version



--
Massimo Belgrano

e
Richard Acosta
2010-05-28 17:07:20 UTC
Permalink
I could expect absolutely anything from anyone, but i thougth you were a
humble man Pritpal.
I was not trying to be disrespectful, and i think i was'nt.

El 26/05/2010 08:04 p.m., Pritpal Bedi escribió:
>>> My help is to the good people on this list.
>>> Whenever a troll appears is better to get rid of him as soon as possible.
>>>
>>> Said that, I will shut my mouth from now on.
> Very well said Angel.
>

Or were you referring to his latest sentence?... if so, i'm sorry to get
it wrong.

Now, i'm going to develop a bit more that idea of mine, that made you
"visibly" upset.

I'm trying to go gui, ok?, but i have several years making the almost
same code and i have a few dozen programms running for decades the same
way....
I have made several changes to addapt my very old and caveman's code to
try to escape from structured programming and terminal interfase.
Unsuccessfully!!!

First i changed a very antique menu system i've been using since
Summer87, very complicated and with a huge code block just to make mouse
work with it.

Yeah, the menumodal era came with Harbour.... (but this seems to not
being used on gui....-it was on fivewin i guess when i did it-)

Then i started to use pdf files to print on USB printers and avoid
margins and other stuff that makes so much people waste so much time
trying to adjust to every printer/system.
this came with gtwvw or wvwtools if i'm not wrong, and that was a GREAT
improvement on my printing system for some very important reasons.

1) My customer, can track his billing system just opening a folder
and double-clicking the corresponding type-doc-number.pdf file
instead of searching papers or handling the accounting system that
he's not too used to work on.
2) I can print anything on any printer wihout having to make
absolute any adjustement to my code.
3) I can fully automate printing or allow the user to watch and save
a bill prior to print or not-print-it at all, without changing the exe.
4) He can email a "secure" PDF of his sales check (bill) or even
fax-it directly.

This two simple changes made my code go years ahead (or come years from
behind), and i had only to watch and track only a couple of functions in
some very small and simple provided samples.

Time for implementation of any of this changes (and some other non
mentinoned) : no more than 1 day each. So you can see the
cost/benefit ratio it's hugely to my side, wich makes me more than
interested to use it.


But:

When i started to see Pritpal's code, i have found it more complex than
the Big Flying Spaghetti Monster. Only this has no meetballs for eyes
and does not fly, but is really a big spaguetti monster.

When i make a program, i split the code in several smaller files, so,
functions/classes/etc... that make things alike, go in a file, and
functions/classes/etc, that make different things but similar to each
other go in a different file.
Also, every prog, class, function, etc... has a header that has it's
name, a brief explanation of it's parameters, what it does, what is for
and what expects to be passed to it as you can see on the following text:

******************************
** Funci¢n mezcla
** Combino funciones de busqueda, uso de flechas y edicion
** 15/01/05
** auxi_busca=space(0) para que empiece limpio
** empieza=1 para no mantener la ultima tecla en buffer
** base=1 o 2 o depende de la cant. de bases de datos que use
** edieli=1 o 0 si dejo eliminar datos
******************************************************************
function mezcla
parameters m, camponom, ncam
cursorcampo=campob[camponom]
.
.


So, when i have to track a piece of my own code i can have Notepad++ or
CrimsonEditor (now emerald) open with several tabs, one for every .prg
file and not having to go up and down constantly .nor. print the whole
code just to watch what's going on.
Even if i have to print it all, i'm still able to print a whole lot
lesser pages to have it all.
And if tomorrow a different programmer has to take my code and modify
it, he can track things easier.... i hope.


What i was suggesting Pritpal is that you may split the code in a
similar manner if you cannot write something to make it understandable,
that's all.

If your code is more learnable, more people is going to like it, and
more people is going to use it, but as long there is someone who thinks
is impossible to track the begginning and the ending of a big spaguetti
monster, there is gonna be some people forced to ask, people that will
complain and people who would'nt be able to help you on developing or
doccumenting.

So, if you don't want others to help you improve your "goddish" product
or help you on doccumenting and help you help others... is ok, but thell
things clear.




Regards.
Danny
2010-05-26 23:37:08 UTC
Permalink
Angel Pais ha scritto:
>
> Maybe the truth is: Harbour is not ready for users not willing to put
> some effort on it.
>
>> and you can't simply tell a new user "do-it-yourself and if you don't
>> like it fuck yourself."
>
> You are tergiversing by words. And I don't have that kind of language.
I was exaggerating just to be clear... "you can't" here means "one can't"
> Nobody has the right to ask anything from anybody here.
To ask is a right, to answer is a courtesy...
> My help is to the good people on this list.
> Whenever a troll appears is better to get rid of him as soon as possible.
>
>
> Said that, I will shut my mouth from now on.
>
Please don't be so extreme. I am not entitled to silence anybody and
don't want it to happen.
Try to figure the frustration of an optimistic newbie that steps into
Harbour and is used to find tons of documentations about everything.
Here he must go the hard way.
In other words, It seems we are saying the same things in substance: I
only recommend to be a bit less severe.
Let's go on studying, helping if we can and, of course, programming!
Dan
Richard Acosta
2010-05-28 15:59:53 UTC
Permalink
OK, i'll try to expose in this (and next couple of) message, where the
foundation of the _real problem_ is, as i see some people can't see it,
and others just don't care to see it since they are VIP (or they think so).

The main thing i will ask/recommend, is to READ my messages completely,
AND try to UNDERSTAND what i said.
My english may be not very good so i'm asking help to uncle google (too)
as i'm writen to try not mess words and meanings.

I know that a programmer is not a Systems analyst, so as we say in my
country "no le voy a pedir peras al olmo" "i will not ask pears to the
elm" and will try to do my best explaining this also to people who's not
prepared to understand problems but only to look ahead and pull a wagon.

First of all, i have to thank all those people who took the time to give
a selfless and productive answer (in the meaning of non destructive) but
also, i have to say, that noone of you have given an answer relative to
what i asked.

So, here is the answer/ask i made to Massimo:

El 26/05/2010 01:06 a.m., Richard Acosta escribió:
> What is xbp syntax?

OK.. so, ¿anyone has answered this?
I really don't know what are you talking about Massimo.
This may have looked as a joke, but adding my next answer maybe help to
understand

El 26/05/2010 01:45 a.m., Richard Acosta escribió:
> (some other stuff) => ...useless answers.


I searched xbp using google, and found a lot of matches
<http://www.google.com.uy/search?q=xbp&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:es-ES:official&client=firefox-a>...
as i had matches also about gamming consoles... =-O i added the word
syntax to search on google
<http://www.google.com.uy/search?num=100&hl=es&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=GD2&rls=org.mozilla%3Aes-ES%3Aofficial&q=xbp+syntax&btnG=Buscar>
and had similar ressults.

So.... ¿can you develop that idea a bit more?

Massimo, thanks for your time and understanding, but on your answer
about harbour documentation... i have that doccumentation, but my main
ask came from a different issue.
I learn dbase, then passed to foxplus and some years later started on
Clipper Summer 87, and until today i have 2 big clipper 5 books at the
reach of my hand, just in case.

I started on Harbour project when it was version "0." (dont remember
exact version, but was low enough)
(this is to who sees himself as a VIP and whinks "newcomers" on xbase
world are annoying)
I'm not only not a newcomer but i could bet i was programming while some
of them were in diapers.
But also, is not the age stuff, i have made programms that send and
receive faxes and email between companies to automate memberships to
health care services and ISPs using Clipper Summer 87 when internet was
borning. I hope some of you remember, there was not so much "classes"
and stuff available as today Today when some people ask for a "function"
to extract data from a text file...
I'm not a newcomer, and i'm not a child.
Massimo Belgrano
2010-05-28 18:10:35 UTC
Permalink
Richard ,
Nobody here is a Vip,
For you isn't good my works when i try support user on mailing list (i admin
bad)
For you isn't good Pritpal as developer (imo Pritpal whih hbqt.hbxhb,hbide
will resolve problem more big than your )
"Flying Spaghetti Monster" not sound good but please try give your contrib
to harbour so we can evaluate how much you are rock



xbp is acronimo for xbase++parts is a gui class made from alaska software
,try find xbp also in harbour source code next times

2010/5/28 Richard Acosta <eyelagui-***@public.gmane.org>

> OK, i'll try to expose in this (and next couple of) message, where the
> foundation of the _real problem_ is, as i see some people can't see it, and
> others just don't care to see it since they are VIP (or they think so).
>
> The main thing i will ask/recommend, is to READ my messages completely, AND
> try to UNDERSTAND what i said.
> My english may be not very good so i'm asking help to uncle google (too) as
> i'm writen to try not mess words and meanings.
>
> I know that a programmer is not a Systems analyst, so as we say in my
> country "no le voy a pedir peras al olmo" "i will not ask pears to the elm"
> and will try to do my best explaining this also to people who's not prepared
> to understand problems but only to look ahead and pull a wagon.
>
> First of all, i have to thank all those people who took the time to give a
> selfless and productive answer (in the meaning of non destructive) but also,
> i have to say, that noone of you have given an answer relative to what i
> asked.
>
> So, here is the answer/ask i made to Massimo:
>
> El 26/05/2010 01:06 a.m., Richard Acosta escribió:
>
>> What is xbp syntax?
>>
>
> OK.. so, ¿anyone has answered this?
> I really don't know what are you talking about Massimo.
> This may have looked as a joke, but adding my next answer maybe help to
> understand
>
> El 26/05/2010 01:45 a.m., Richard Acosta escribió:
>
>> (some other stuff) => ...useless answers.
>>
>
>
> I searched xbp using google, and found a lot of matches <
> http://www.google.com.uy/search?q=xbp&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:es-ES:official&client=firefox-a>...
> as i had matches also about gamming consoles... =-O i added the word syntax
> to search on google <
> http://www.google.com.uy/search?num=100&hl=es&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=GD2&rls=org.mozilla%3Aes-ES%3Aofficial&q=xbp+syntax&btnG=Buscar>
> and had similar ressults.
>
> So.... ¿can you develop that idea a bit more?
>
> Massimo, thanks for your time and understanding, but on your answer about
> harbour documentation... i have that doccumentation, but my main ask came
> from a different issue.
> I learn dbase, then passed to foxplus and some years later started on
> Clipper Summer 87, and until today i have 2 big clipper 5 books at the reach
> of my hand, just in case.
>
> I started on Harbour project when it was version "0." (dont remember exact
> version, but was low enough)
> (this is to who sees himself as a VIP and whinks "newcomers" on xbase world
> are annoying)
> I'm not only not a newcomer but i could bet i was programming while some of
> them were in diapers.
> But also, is not the age stuff, i have made programms that send and receive
> faxes and email between companies to automate memberships to health care
> services and ISPs using Clipper Summer 87 when internet was borning. I hope
> some of you remember, there was not so much "classes" and stuff available as
> today Today when some people ask for a "function" to extract data from a
> text file...
> I'm not a newcomer, and i'm not a child.
>
>
>
--
Massimo Belgrano
Richard Acosta
2010-05-31 15:03:04 UTC
Permalink
El 28/05/2010 03:10 p.m., Massimo Belgrano escribió:
> Richard ,
> Nobody here is a Vip,
> For you isn't good my works when i try support user on mailing list (i admin
> bad)
>
I have not spoke about Harbour nor the list... and certainly i have not
complained about harbour's doccumentation.
If so, please quote my msg.

> For you isn't good Pritpal as developer (imo Pritpal whih hbqt.hbxhb,hbide
> will resolve problem more big than your )
>
Please, quote where i said Pritpal is not good as a developer or
suggested it.
As i recall, i have ........ wait, i'll quote it for you:

El 20/05/2010 12:32 p.m., Richard Acosta escribió:
> Hello again.
>
> ......
> This time, as a suggestion. Pritpal, when you could make some time for
> it, please, write a manual, a reference guide or something alike.
> _Your tool as i've seen is *a very powerfull one*, but too hard to
> track the code_.
> I'm still stuck on procedural programming, so it's harder to me to
> track OOp.
> .......
> I have the best intentions, if i could make anything to help, i would.
>
> Best regards.

> "Flying Spaghetti Monster" not sound good but please try give your contrib
> to harbour so we can evaluate how much you are rock
>
.¿What do you mean about "how much you are rock"?... I was'n speaking
about hollow vs dense, it was about trying to find a noodle's path on
the pan.
My contrib to harbour is everything i have written, i ask for
doccumentation, i'm exposing what's being needed, i said gtwvg is a heck
of a product but it needs doccumentation or reordering it's code to get
it more readable.
¿which part is not being undertood?

> xbp is acronimo for xbase++parts is a gui class made from alaska software
> ,try find xbp also in harbour source code next times
>
> 2010/5/28 Richard Acosta<eyelagui-***@public.gmane.org>
>
i'll seek that now then...
Przemysław Czerpak
2010-05-26 20:34:09 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 26 May 2010, Danny wrote:

Hi,

> while I substancially must agree with the general sense of your
> post, this is not an answer.
> And it's quite rude and does not help any newcomers. Moreover, it
> can cause people not to look into Harbour Project at all and stay
> away from it.
> We all -I think- love Harbour not only because it's free, but
> because it has some value DESPITE the fact that it's free.
> The lack of documentation IS a problem, and you can't simply tell a
> new user "do-it-yourself and if you don't like it fuck yourself."
> Please if you can't be of any help avoid to write at all, this is
> not the spirit of this mailing list.

There are two problems.
The first one is minor.
There are no people in Harbour community who find writing
documentation funny enough to make it for free in their own
spare time. This is free developer choice and non of us can
change it. We can only accept current state.
The second one is the real problem.
Most of people who use Harbour for free and find it really
good language do not want to spent even small money for
commercial documentation. xHarbour.com invest quite big
money to create such documentation which can be used by
Harbour and xHarbour users and anyone interested can buy it.
But after few years they didn't received back even 20% of
invested sum they had to pay for commercial writer (one of
the best one in the xBase world). Instead we are still seeing
messages like yours that it's our problem that we haven't
created such documentation for free. Such messages confirms
that time and money invested in creating good commercial
documentation will be lost so probably nothing will change
in the future.

best regards,
Przemek
Bruno Luciani
2010-05-26 22:40:57 UTC
Permalink
Przemysław

Is not posible to generate a separate program , precompiled
to browse actual DOC , like Help in HBIDE ?

I think this could have usefull to those that are looking for help
I know that is not a complete help but , actually if somebody like
to use this help need to compile HBIDE , and for an inexpert user
this task may be hard.

Bruno

2010/5/26 Przemysław Czerpak <druzus-***@public.gmane.org>

> On Wed, 26 May 2010, Danny wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> > while I substancially must agree with the general sense of your
> > post, this is not an answer.
> > And it's quite rude and does not help any newcomers. Moreover, it
> > can cause people not to look into Harbour Project at all and stay
> > away from it.
> > We all -I think- love Harbour not only because it's free, but
> > because it has some value DESPITE the fact that it's free.
> > The lack of documentation IS a problem, and you can't simply tell a
> > new user "do-it-yourself and if you don't like it fuck yourself."
> > Please if you can't be of any help avoid to write at all, this is
> > not the spirit of this mailing list.
>
> There are two problems.
> The first one is minor.
> There are no people in Harbour community who find writing
> documentation funny enough to make it for free in their own
> spare time. This is free developer choice and non of us can
> change it. We can only accept current state.
> The second one is the real problem.
> Most of people who use Harbour for free and find it really
> good language do not want to spent even small money for
> commercial documentation. xHarbour.com invest quite big
> money to create such documentation which can be used by
> Harbour and xHarbour users and anyone interested can buy it.
> But after few years they didn't received back even 20% of
> invested sum they had to pay for commercial writer (one of
> the best one in the xBase world). Instead we are still seeing
> messages like yours that it's our problem that we haven't
> created such documentation for free. Such messages confirms
> that time and money invested in creating good commercial
> documentation will be lost so probably nothing will change
> in the future.
>
> best regards,
> Przemek
> _______________________________________________
> Harbour-users mailing list (attachment size limit: 40KB)
> Harbour-users-pG8skwman+OtlBvVaVFjCkB+***@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.harbour-project.org/mailman/listinfo/harbour-users
>
Pritpal Bedi
2010-05-26 22:52:10 UTC
Permalink
Hi



> Is not posible to generate a separate program , precompiled
> to browse actual DOC , like Help in HBIDE ?
>
> I think this could have usefull to those that are looking for help
> I know that is not a complete help but , actually if somebody like
> to use this help need to compile HBIDE , and for an inexpert user
> this task may be hard.


For this you do not need to compile hbIDE.

Just download from http://hbide.vouch.info/

It is for Windows though.



Pritpal Bedi




_________________________________________________________________
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Bruno Luciani
2010-05-26 23:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Yes I know

But I think in something similar to chm , only to browse Documentation

I like very much your Doc section in HBIDE

Bruno

2010/5/26 Pritpal Bedi <bedipritpal-***@public.gmane.org>

>
> Hi
>
>
>
> > Is not posible to generate a separate program , precompiled
> > to browse actual DOC , like Help in HBIDE ?
> >
> > I think this could have usefull to those that are looking for help
> > I know that is not a complete help but , actually if somebody like
> > to use this help need to compile HBIDE , and for an inexpert user
> > this task may be hard.
>
>
> For this you do not need to compile hbIDE.
>
> Just download from http://hbide.vouch.info/
>
> It is for Windows though.
>
>
>
> Pritpal Bedi
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your
> inbox.
>
> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2_______________________________________________
> Harbour-users mailing list (attachment size limit: 40KB)
> Harbour-users-pG8skwman+OtlBvVaVFjCkB+***@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.harbour-project.org/mailman/listinfo/harbour-users
>
Massimo Belgrano
2010-05-27 06:43:32 UTC
Permalink
You can use keyboard mappings in hbide f1 to follow script
|cTopic|
cTopic := ::GetText(),
iif( empty( cTopic ), cTopic := ::GetWord(.F.), NIL),
iif( empty( cTopic ), cTopic := "", NIL),
::execTool( "hh.exe",
"C:\xHB\Doc\xHarbour Language Reference Guide.chm" +
":" + ":" + cTopic )

http://docs.google.com/File?id=dhmtv9fs_314fzgfgtf5_b

http://pp2.s3.amazonaws.com/43b88199c57342ba/afca183bbc844d3d956d69ca47ce212a.png


not work direct help on function selected due a limitation of hh.exe


Can hbide generate a pdf with all documentation included instead only a
single page?

2010/5/27 Bruno Luciani <bruno.luciani-***@public.gmane.org>

> Yes I know
>
> But I think in something similar to chm , only to browse Documentation
>
> I like very much your Doc section in HBIDE
>
> Bruno
>
> 2010/5/26 Pritpal Bedi <bedipritpal-***@public.gmane.org>
>
> >
> > Hi
> >
> >
> >
> > > Is not posible to generate a separate program , precompiled
> > > to browse actual DOC , like Help in HBIDE ?
> > >
> > > I think this could have usefull to those that are looking for help
> > > I know that is not a complete help but , actually if somebody like
> > > to use this help need to compile HBIDE , and for an inexpert user
> > > this task may be hard.
> >
> >
> > For this you do not need to compile hbIDE.
> >
> > Just download from http://hbide.vouch.info/
> >
> > It is for Windows though.
> >
> >
> >
> > Pritpal Bedi
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
Roberto Lopez
2010-05-27 13:28:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi All,

Just an idea about documentation.

AFAIK, Clipper is still owned by CA and I'm pretty sure that it has no
significant commercial value for them anymore.

Perhaps, if Harbour project administrators ask for it, CA could release
Clipper documentation with some kind of free license.

So, the only required work to have a complete Harbour documentation,
could be to write an appendix with Harbour extensions over Clipper.

Just an idea.

Regards,

Roberto.
Massimo Belgrano
2010-05-27 13:47:11 UTC
Permalink
Hi roberto
also same clipper book with reference of function will be instresting
anybody here know right person?

2010/5/27 Roberto Lopez <roberbox-***@public.gmane.org>

> Hi All,
>
> Just an idea about documentation.
>
> AFAIK, Clipper is still owned by CA and I'm pretty sure that it has no
> significant commercial value for them anymore.
>
> Perhaps, if Harbour project administrators ask for it, CA could release
> Clipper documentation with some kind of free license.
>
> So, the only required work to have a complete Harbour documentation, could
> be to write an appendix with Harbour extensions over Clipper.
>
> Just an idea.
>
> Regards,
>
> Roberto.
>
>
>
>
--
Massimo Belgrano
Roberto Lopez
2010-05-27 21:50:35 UTC
Permalink
Massimo Belgrano wrote:

> Hi roberto
> also same clipper book with reference of function will be instresting
> anybody here know right person?

I've think on CA, because they has not desktop development tools
anymore, so, from its POV, Harbour is not a competitor.

Besides that, releasing Clipper documentation for free could be good for
them in terms of the relation with the open source community.

As I've said, just an idea.

Anyway, the worst thing that could happen is that they say a big NO! :)


Regards,

Roberto.
Massimo Belgrano
2010-05-28 06:50:08 UTC
Permalink
Imo will be right idea
Headquarters of ca
Islandia, New York — Headquarters

One CA Plaza
Islandia
NY
USA
11749

Phone: 800-225-5224
Fax: +1 631 342-680

http://www.ca.com/us/contact/offices.aspx





2010/5/27 Roberto Lopez <roberbox-***@public.gmane.org>

> Massimo Belgrano wrote:
>
> Hi roberto
>> also same clipper book with reference of function will be instresting
>> anybody here know right person?
>>
>
> I've think on CA, because they has not desktop development tools anymore,
> so, from its POV, Harbour is not a competitor.
>
> Besides that, releasing Clipper documentation for free could be good for
> them in terms of the relation with the open source community.
>
> As I've said, just an idea.
>
> Anyway, the worst thing that could happen is that they say a big NO! :)
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Roberto.
> _______________________________________________
> Harbour-users mailing list (attachment size limit: 40KB)
> Harbour-users-pG8skwman+OtlBvVaVFjCkB+***@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.harbour-project.org/mailman/listinfo/harbour-users
>



--
Massimo Belgrano
Alex Strickland
2010-05-28 11:37:22 UTC
Permalink
Roberto Lopez wrote:

> Anyway, the worst thing that could happen is that they say a big NO! :)

I think they will because you can still buy it:

http://www.grafxsoft.com/clipper.htm

and I think they now own it.

Regards
Alex
Roberto Lopez
2010-05-28 21:33:21 UTC
Permalink
Alex Strickland escribió:

>> Anyway, the worst thing that could happen is that they say a big NO! :)
>
> I think they will because you can still buy it:
>
> http://www.grafxsoft.com/clipper.htm
>
> and I think they now own it.

You are right. According Wikipedia:

"On April 22, 2002 Computer Associates and GrafX Software announced they
had reached a Development, Licensing, and Marketing Agreement for two of
their software development languages -- CA-Clipper and CA-Visual Objects."

Sorry.

Regards,

Roberto.
Massimo Belgrano
2010-05-29 07:37:24 UTC
Permalink
*Brian* Feldman is the right people
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/brian-feldman/5/890/973
<http://www.linkedin.com/pub/brian-feldman/5/890/973>can somebody speakink
english contact him

A biggest user base of xbase world will help everybody
route to open linceze clipper 5.2/5.3 doc (free)

2010/5/28 Roberto Lopez <roberbox-***@public.gmane.org>

>
> You are right. According Wikipedia:
>
> "On April 22, 2002 Computer Associates and GrafX Software announced they
> had reached a Development, Licensing, and Marketing Agreement for two of
> their software development languages -- CA-Clipper and CA-Visual Objects."
>
> --
Massimo Belgrano
Roberto Lopez
2010-05-29 14:54:26 UTC
Permalink
Massimo Belgrano escribió:
> *Brian* Feldman is the right people
<...>

Another idea (could be a little 'naive', I know):

Harbour is very popular today. If xHarbour docs were bundled with
Harbour compiler distro, it could serve to xHarbour.com as publicity for
its commercial products and services.

So, both parts will be benefited: Harbour will get documentation and
xHarbour, publicity.

Harbour does not have any of the things that xHarbour sell, so this
could be a good complementation.

For xHarboour.com, the money they invested in documentation, will be
transformed in advertising, so, it will be not lost.

Sorry for the naive-ness of the post :)


Regards,

Roberto.
Massimo Belgrano
2010-05-29 15:05:44 UTC
Permalink
how to create harbour documentation?
Click on find in file search in c:\harbour\src and subdir
Open source code in editor from find in file
Click on "Documentation Writer" icon on the right-toolbar,

Position cursor somewhere inside a function body,
Click on "Load from current function" icon on the top-toolbar of "Document
Writer" widget,


Look at the contents, few fields will be auto filled with various info from
current function,
Complete the other fields with relevent information,

Click on "Save the documentation with current function",
Look at the function body in the editor, The NANFORUM compliant
documentation will be inserted at the top of function's prototype.
Click on "Save written/updated documentation" icon, and provide the filename
to save on disk,
Copy such generated .txt in /harbour/doc/en,
Open "Harbour Document Viewer" and you should be viewing newly written
documentation there. Such generated file is ready to be uploaded to SVN,
just send it to the list and group will decide if it needs something extra.


--
Massimo Belgrano
Richard Acosta
2010-05-28 16:18:47 UTC
Permalink
Now, i will give a bit of time, to disrespectful people too:

here you have people.... the most selfish answer you could ever expect
from a suppossed selfless developer from an (almost) selfless project.
This is a open source project.

El 26/05/2010 10:52 a.m., Angel Pais escribió:
>>> If you find lack of documentation you are invited to write it.
>>> You can give something instead of whining about voluntary work
>>> done by
>>> others.
>>> If you don't like Harbour there are commercial alternatives
>>> where you
>>> can demmand for what you've paid.
>>>
El 26/05/2010 02:47 p.m., Angel Pais escribió:
> My help is to the good people on this list.
> Whenever a troll appears is better to get rid of him as soon as
> possible.



As far as i know, a Troll is one looking to provoke trouble. (or
something alike)

Wikipedia <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29> says:

In Internet slang <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_slang>, a
*troll* is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic
messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum>, chat room
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chat_room>, or blog
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blog>, with the primary intent of
provoking other users into a desired emotional
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotion> response^[1]
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29#cite_note-PCMAG_def-0>
or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.^[2]
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29#cite_note-IUKB_def-1>
In addition to the offending poster, the noun "troll" can also refer
to the provocative message itself, as in /that was an excellent
troll you posted/. While the term troll and its associated action,
/trolling/, are primarily associated with Internet discourse, media
attention in recent years has made such labels highly subjective,
with /trolling/ being used to describe many intentionally
provocative actions outside of an online context.


OK so, as i was:
1) Suggesting Pritpal to improve the "learnability" of his software.
(magnificent software i may say)
2) Asking for an new answer to an incomplete answer from Massimo.
3) Suggesting in general to take a bit more of time to understand a
question and answer in a bit more complete manner. (as we have almost
all the language issue -not xbase language, motherhood language-)

The only who may be considered a Troll should be that people who
answered intentionally in an inflammatory way, offtopic, provoking
others, and looking for an emotional response instead of trying to help.
¿Could you Angel please read your message/s before continuing?



OK and now answering your first message:

If i'm asking for documentation, saying that i cannot understand the
written code as every programmer has some sort of "own style"
My question to you is the following:

How could you expect someone asking for a manual to learn a matter could
write a manual about that matter prior to learn it?

And as i know you didn't understand i will answer for you, but with a
new question.

Why someone capable of making a manual could be asking for a manual
about that same matter?

Now:

Don't you think this is a bit contradictory?
Angel Pais
2010-05-28 18:17:02 UTC
Permalink
And you still don't know why people doesn't answer you ?

Guess..

1) There is a HUGE Changelog where all your questions are answered and
you dont even dare to read it because your time is more important than
developpers time. So you ask someone else to digest it for you.
Bite the bullet and read it all before asking.

2) If you receive a NO as an aswer o don't receive an answers at all,
asking again won't change it.

You say you're not a child but you act like that !!
Qatan
2010-05-26 19:24:40 UTC
Permalink
Richard,

There is a good online guide here:
http://www.xharbour.com/xhdn/referenceguide/
It requires you to register before having access.
You can also download a CHM demo version for free there.
It is for xHarbour that is very similar to Harbour and helps a lot.
Give it a try and you will like it.

Qatan


----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Acosta" <eyelagui-***@public.gmane.org>
To: <harbour-users-pG8skwman+OtlBvVaVFjCkB+***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Wednesday, 26 de May de 2010 01:45
Subject: Re: [Harbour-users] Documentation


Ok, i checked the code, compiled and modifyed, but i'm receiving the
same ressults no matters wich font i put, no mathers what screen mode i
tell, there comes always a screen the same size with the same font on it.
This is the part of the code i modified:

SETMODE(20,25) // (25,50),(25,80),(etc..)
.
.
.
HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTNAME, "Verdana") ("Trebuchet MS") (etc..)

So... where can i find some info./manual/reference to study what's wrong
or what's the correct way to do it? other than asking and asking and
asking and asking.... that makes so much people get upset and give so
many useless answers.

Why people makes things available without info.?
Is there some sort of game? "i'm smart and you're an idiot, so this is
the proof, you cant undestand me"...

If i find a piece of code where i can track some stuff, ok, i may learn
something and ask whatever i cant understand.
If i find several smallest code files, each with only 1 small function
procedure or wathever to see how it works... the better, maybe i have
not to ask.
But this way, where there is no documentation, there is a bunch of code
and "loose words" as explanations, come on... it seems you do it on
purpose to avoid others to understand.

If it is so easy why not give a complete answer?
If it is so simple why not make some reference documentation to help others?


Come on men... how do you think Harbour is going to survive or get
anywhere without giving others the chance to learn about?
Is this just a workaround until the time all of you retire so you have
not to learn or develop a new compiler?

Did you all learn programming just by watching tons of sensless code
from others?

Should give my 4 y/o son a book and tell "guess how to read"?


Regards.



El 25/05/2010 01:28 p.m., Massimo Belgrano escribió:
> you can easy convert your source to gui adding a similar template
>
> so you can maintain your source whith little modification
>
>
> and then start adding gui element
>
> in systax compatible with xbp but with vgw prefix
>
>
> Please revise my untested source
>
>
> // hbmk2 sample.prg -gtwvg -gui
>
> REQUEST HB_GT_WVG_DEFAULT
>
> REQUEST HB_GT_WVG
>
> #INCLUDE "HBGTINFO.CH"
> function main
> set color to "N/W,N/BG,,,N/W*"
> cls
>
> SETMODE(25,80)
>
> hb_gtInfo( HB_GTI_ICONFILE, "sample.ico" )
> hb_gtInfo( HB_GTI_WINTITLE, "Programm Title" )
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_SELECTCOPY,.T.)
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_RESIZABLE, .T. )
> HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_CLOSABLE, .T. )
>
> HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_RESIZABLE, .T. )
>
> HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_CODEPAGE, 255 )
>
> Hb_GTInfo(HB_GTI_MOUSESTATUS, 1 )
>
> screenHeight:= HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_SCREENWIDTH, HB_GTINFO(
> HB_GTI_DESKTOPWIDTH ) )
>
> screenHeight:HB_GTINFO( HB_GTI_SCREENHEIGHT, HB_GTINFO(
> HB_GTI_DESKTOPHEIGHT ) - 50 )
>
> *SETMODE( GTINFO( GTI_DESKTOPROWS ) - 5, GTINFO( GTI_DESKTOPCOLS ) )
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTNAME, "Courier New")
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTQUALITY,HB_GTI_FONTQ_HIGH )
>
> if screenWidth>= 1920
>
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 21 )
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 40)
>
> ELSEIF screenWidth>= 1600 // 1280 *960
>
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 18 )
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 32)
>
> elseif screenWidth>= 1280 // 1280 *960
>
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 13 )
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 20) // 15*80=1200
> 36*25=900
>
> elseif screenWidth>= 1024 // 1024*760
>
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 12.5 )
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 20)
>
> elseif screenWidth>= 800
>
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 10 )
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 18)
>
> ELSE
>
> Hb_GtInfo( HB_GTI_FONTWIDTH, 14 )
>
> HB_GTInfo(HB_GTI_FONTSIZE, 8)
>
> ENDIF
>
>
>
> return
>
>
> 2010/5/25 Richard Acosta<eyelagui-***@public.gmane.org>
>
>
>> How could i know how to make things work with gtwvg?...
>>
>> Are you suggesting me to not use gtwvg?
>>
>>
>> El 20/05/2010 01:07 p.m., Pritpal Bedi escribió:
>>
>> Hi
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> At this moment, i am at 35 pages, and about 1500 lines of code of about
>>>> 4500 lines of code... so this sample program is about 135/140 pages...
>>>> ¿how to track anything?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Simple,
>>>
>>> don't track anything...
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>>
>>>
Bruno Luciani
2010-05-26 18:46:53 UTC
Permalink
Richard , if you are trying to start using graphical programming
you can start using Minigui ( in his 3 flavors minigui, oohg or HMG )

Probably is a little more documented ( not full ) and it is easy to learn

These are external projects , and have his own forum lists

Bruno

2010/3/30 Richard Acosta <eyelagui-***@public.gmane.org>

> I would like to get some documentation about graphical user interface
> programming on Harbour.
>
> I can't find anything about gtwvg and would like to start on GUI, but i'm
> stuck. I've read a lot about using that library for programming gui
> applications, but absolutely nothing about how to.
> _______________________________________________
> Harbour-users mailing list (attachment size limit: 40KB)
> Harbour-users-pG8skwman+OtlBvVaVFjCkB+***@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.harbour-project.org/mailman/listinfo/harbour-users
>
Massimo Belgrano
2010-05-26 18:59:54 UTC
Permalink
Yes, but gtwvg will allow very fast startup , becase add same row to your
source

http://sites.google.com/site/hmgweb/
<http://sites.google.com/site/hmgweb/>http://www.hmgforum.com/

2010/5/26 Bruno Luciani <bruno.luciani-***@public.gmane.org>

> Richard , if you are trying to start using graphical programming
> you can start using Minigui ( in his 3 flavors minigui, oohg or HMG )
>
> Probably is a little more documented ( not full ) and it is easy to learn
>
> These are external projects , and have his own forum lists
>
> Bruno
>
> 2010/3/30 Richard Acosta <eyelagui-***@public.gmane.org>
>
> > I would like to get some documentation about graphical user interface
> > programming on Harbour.
> >
> > I can't find anything about gtwvg and would like to start on GUI, but i'm
> > stuck. I've read a lot about using that library for programming gui
> > applications, but absolutely nothing about how to.
> > _______________________________________________
>
--
Massimo Belgrano
Richard Acosta
2010-05-28 17:12:21 UTC
Permalink
Bruno, i satrted on minigui, but i cannot advance, since OOp is still
making me headaches...
That's whi i tought Pritpal's code could help me better.

I have parts of several programs started using minigui, but i end always
having some sort of issue that go beyond my knowledge and doccumentation
available.

I'm also suscribed to minigui list, but it seems inactive...


El 26/05/2010 03:46 p.m., Bruno Luciani escribió:
> Richard , if you are trying to start using graphical programming
> you can start using Minigui ( in his 3 flavors minigui, oohg or HMG )
>
> Probably is a little more documented ( not full ) and it is easy to learn
>
> These are external projects , and have his own forum lists
>
> Bruno
>
> 2010/3/30 Richard Acosta<eyelagui-***@public.gmane.org>
>
>
>> I would like to get some documentation about graphical user interface
>> programming on Harbour.
>>
>> I can't find anything about gtwvg and would like to start on GUI, but i'm
>> stuck. I've read a lot about using that library for programming gui
>> applications, but absolutely nothing about how to.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Harbour-users mailing list (attachment size limit: 40KB)
>> Harbour-users-pG8skwman+OtlBvVaVFjCkB+***@public.gmane.org
>> http://lists.harbour-project.org/mailman/listinfo/harbour-users
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Harbour-users mailing list (attachment size limit: 40KB)
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>
>
Bruno Luciani
2010-05-28 18:24:02 UTC
Permalink
But richard , minigui is semi-oop , and is easy to use , take a try to HMG
instead

Bruno

2010/5/28 Richard Acosta <eyelagui-***@public.gmane.org>

> Bruno, i satrted on minigui, but i cannot advance, since OOp is still
> making me headaches...
> That's whi i tought Pritpal's code could help me better.
>
> I have parts of several programs started using minigui, but i end always
> having some sort of issue that go beyond my knowledge and doccumentation
> available.
>
> I'm also suscribed to minigui list, but it seems inactive...
>
>
> El 26/05/2010 03:46 p.m., Bruno Luciani escribió:
>
> Richard , if you are trying to start using graphical programming
>> you can start using Minigui ( in his 3 flavors minigui, oohg or HMG )
>>
>> Probably is a little more documented ( not full ) and it is easy to learn
>>
>> These are external projects , and have his own forum lists
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>> 2010/3/30 Richard Acosta<eyelagui-***@public.gmane.org>
>>
>>
>>
>>> I would like to get some documentation about graphical user interface
>>> programming on Harbour.
>>>
>>> I can't find anything about gtwvg and would like to start on GUI, but i'm
>>> stuck. I've read a lot about using that library for programming gui
>>> applications, but absolutely nothing about how to.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Harbour-users mailing list (attachment size limit: 40KB)
>>> Harbour-users-pG8skwman+OtlBvVaVFjCkB+***@public.gmane.org
>>> http://lists.harbour-project.org/mailman/listinfo/harbour-users
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Harbour-users mailing list (attachment size limit: 40KB)
>> Harbour-users-pG8skwman+OtlBvVaVFjCkB+***@public.gmane.org
>> http://lists.harbour-project.org/mailman/listinfo/harbour-users
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Harbour-users mailing list (attachment size limit: 40KB)
> Harbour-users-pG8skwman+OtlBvVaVFjCkB+***@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.harbour-project.org/mailman/listinfo/harbour-users
>
d***@public.gmane.org
2010-05-27 23:15:37 UTC
Permalink
Hi all

There has been a lot of discussion about Harbour documentation (or the
lack of it) of late.

Realistically it must be holding people back from using what is a
wonderful product.  And  many users would be more productive with better
documentation.

It is also quite understandable because:

1. The developers of the product are very busy continuing to develop
Harbour for all of us

2. They are probably not the ideal people to write polished documentation
although anyone who sets out to write such documentation would presumably
want their input

3. Documentation should ideally cover
--- multiple supported operating systems
--- multiple gui and character front ends
--- multiple data and index formats and access methods
because most users will want to use a gui front end and a data base back
end.  Covering all that would be a nightmare for an individual as there
are so many options.

If we consider the Harbour "core" then the problem is much smaller (but
will still leave the average new adopter confused about gui front end and
data back end).  We have

1. Clipper documentation (of various sorts).  This is helpful but
doesn't cover the myriad of Harbour extensions.
2. xHarbour documentation (on line and commercial).  This is probably
more helpful but remains confusing as there are significant differences
between the two dialects and was very much developed for Windows users
although xHarbour came in a Linux version.
3. Pritpal's hbide (not yet really a newbie option , certainly at this
stage?) and a windows only program
4. The existing Harbour documentation and changelog etc.  This is useful
but incomplete and awkward to find information assuming it is covered.

Part of the problem is that users want to access the documentation in
different ways on different platforms.

As I see it we need three things.

Firstly we need to agree on a base format for the documentation
content.  This should directly or indirectly support multiple front ends
so that users can ultimately print documentation out or access it
electronically as suits them which could be on line or offline.  We
should be able to write a program to convert existing content to that
format.  It should also be extensible to cover areas such as
contributions, utilities etc and make organising and finding information
easy.

Secondly we need people to write the content.  One of the biggest issues
there is that, as far as I can see, the first issue hasn't really been
resolved.  Writing documentation isn't easy and takes a lot of time. 
Potential writers want to do the job once and see their work used or there
is no motivation at all.

Thirdly we need people to write front ends / converters as required so
that the documentation can be accessed in the ways users want on their
platform of choice.  I note that hbide will be a great tool for many, but
adequate alternative tools (not so Harbour oriented) do exist.  I would
rate improved documentation as a much higher priority.

Addressing the first issue I believe we should consider a format that
Harbour supports "out of the box".  XML would seem to be ideal choice and
very flexible.  Alternately .dbf files with .dbts.

I would certainly consider contributing to a documentation project but it
would need to have a clear mission and format behind it.

Regards
xProgrammer
Pritpal Bedi
2010-05-27 23:59:54 UTC
Permalink
Hi



> 3. Pritpal's hbide (not yet really a newbie option , certainly at this
> stage?) and a windows only program



I can see you never even tried hbIDE, your words express it.

hbIDE is platform independent.



"not yet really a newbie option" - I assume you mean the "help authoring" part - right ?

Then probably you are wrong. There is "Documentation Writer" widget which has fields

and then saving option to disk. Try once, write a function doc an dsend to the list.



Yes of course that component requires some more work, but considering the fact

that I received no feedback from anyone, what more is required, it got stagnant.

I will be really willing to extend it, show your intent to use.


> 4. The existing Harbour documentation and changelog etc. This is useful
> but incomplete and awkward to find information assuming it is covered.


You may be right and wrong too. It depends on the context of the topic.



> I would certainly consider contributing to a documentation project but it
> would need to have a clear mission and format behind it.


We already agreed on the format few months back. Did you went through those messages ?

It is NANFORUM format and whatever documentation Harbour has, is in the SVN under this

format only. It is easy to convert it to any higher level format. hbIDE presents it in a

.chm style control already. The code is already there to convert it to PDF or compiled .chm.

But this is a point to be considered once actual help is written.



Time and again we fallback on discussing about formats, nobody actually start writing.



Regards

Pritpal Bedi

_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5
Richard Acosta
2010-05-28 17:18:36 UTC
Permalink
Just to clearfy... (again) i was asking Pritpal's for some
doccumentation or a more easy to track code.

El 20/05/2010 12:32 p.m., Richard Acosta escribió:
> I can't find feet and head watching the whole code at the same place,
> it is hard for me to track it down as i could find talking to other
> people, is still too hard for many.
>
> This time, as a suggestion. Pritpal, when you could make some time
> for it, please, write a manual, a reference guide or something
> alike. Your tool as i've seen is a very powerfull one, but too
> hard to track the code.
> I'm still stuck on procedural programming, so it's harder to me to
> track OOp.
>
>
> At this moment i'm printing demowvg.prg and start cutting it to see if
> i can track things better, but i guess is not the ideal approach to
> have a wall with paper pieces only to try to follow some code.
>
> I have the best intentions, if i could make anything to help, i would.
>
> Best regards.




El 27/05/2010 08:15 p.m., dougf-***@public.gmane.org escribió:
> Hi all
>
> There has been a lot of discussion about Harbour documentation (or the
> lack of it) of late.
>
> Realistically it must be holding people back from using what is a
> wonderful product. And many users would be more productive with better
> documentation.
>
> It is also quite understandable because:
>
> 1. The developers of the product are very busy continuing to develop
> Harbour for all of us
>
> 2. They are probably not the ideal people to write polished documentation
> although anyone who sets out to write such documentation would presumably
> want their input
>
> 3. Documentation should ideally cover
> --- multiple supported operating systems
> --- multiple gui and character front ends
> --- multiple data and index formats and access methods
> because most users will want to use a gui front end and a data base back
> end. Covering all that would be a nightmare for an individual as there
> are so many options.
>
> If we consider the Harbour "core" then the problem is much smaller (but
> will still leave the average new adopter confused about gui front end and
> data back end). We have
>
> 1. Clipper documentation (of various sorts). This is helpful but
> doesn't cover the myriad of Harbour extensions.
> 2. xHarbour documentation (on line and commercial). This is probably
> more helpful but remains confusing as there are significant differences
> between the two dialects and was very much developed for Windows users
> although xHarbour came in a Linux version.
> 3. Pritpal's hbide (not yet really a newbie option , certainly at this
> stage?) and a windows only program
> 4. The existing Harbour documentation and changelog etc. This is useful
> but incomplete and awkward to find information assuming it is covered.
>
> Part of the problem is that users want to access the documentation in
> different ways on different platforms.
>
> As I see it we need three things.
>
> Firstly we need to agree on a base format for the documentation
> content. This should directly or indirectly support multiple front ends
> so that users can ultimately print documentation out or access it
> electronically as suits them which could be on line or offline. We
> should be able to write a program to convert existing content to that
> format. It should also be extensible to cover areas such as
> contributions, utilities etc and make organising and finding information
> easy.
>
> Secondly we need people to write the content. One of the biggest issues
> there is that, as far as I can see, the first issue hasn't really been
> resolved. Writing documentation isn't easy and takes a lot of time.
> Potential writers want to do the job once and see their work used or there
> is no motivation at all.
>
> Thirdly we need people to write front ends / converters as required so
> that the documentation can be accessed in the ways users want on their
> platform of choice. I note that hbide will be a great tool for many, but
> adequate alternative tools (not so Harbour oriented) do exist. I would
> rate improved documentation as a much higher priority.
>
> Addressing the first issue I believe we should consider a format that
> Harbour supports "out of the box". XML would seem to be ideal choice and
> very flexible. Alternately .dbf files with .dbts.
>
> I would certainly consider contributing to a documentation project but it
> would need to have a clear mission and format behind it.
>
> Regards
> xProgrammer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Harbour-users mailing list (attachment size limit: 40KB)
> Harbour-users-pG8skwman+OtlBvVaVFjCkB+***@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.harbour-project.org/mailman/listinfo/harbour-users
>
>
d***@public.gmane.org
2010-05-28 01:14:58 UTC
Permalink
Hi Pritpal

>> 3. Pritpal's hbide (not yet really a newbie option , certainly at this
>> stage?) and a windows only program

> I can see you never even tried hbIDE, your words express it.

> hbIDE is platform independent.

Yes I know, and I did not express myself clearly enough.  The windows
only program is your alternative to using hbide which you yourself
declared to be windows only.  I should have been more specific.  I in no
way was criticising hbide which is a laudable project and quite an
achievement.  You are correct that I haven't used it - partly because I
have never really gone for any IDE and partly because from my reading of
this group I have figured that, at least for a Linux platform (my choice)
the effort involved might well exceed any benefit that might potentially
be gained.  Plus I have my own Harbour code generator which will
automatically build my major applications for me.  Also I am using GTK.

> "not yet really a newbie option" - I assume you mean the "help
authoring" part - right ?

I did put  ", certainly at this  stage?" after that.  I was not
specifically referring to the "help authoring" part. And the question mark
reflected the fact that I was making what I thought was a reasonable
assumption but indicating that it was effectively a question as to the
truth of my contention as well. Rather given that hbide was still under
active development and users were (not surprisingly) reporting issues with
it I felt that using it may not really solve a newbie's problems (certainly
on a Linux platform).  I do sympathise with a lack of feedback.  I am not
sure why that is.  I suppose that many users want to sit back until its
nice and stable and documented etc.  Some my be like me and not looking
for an IDE.  Others may be "shy".

> We already agreed on the format few months back. Did you went through
those messages ?

> It is NANFORUM format and whatever documentation Harbour has, is in the
SVN under this

> format only.

I did see some discussion (rather limited but maybe I missed some of it)
and did in fact make a post with some suggestions at that point but no-one
responded to my suggestions.  Maybe I didn't see all that had gone on but
my recollection was that "we agreed" means a small group of people (albeit
rather important to the future of Harbour) without really considering all
the alternative suggestions and not agreed amongst active documentation
writers (of which I gather there are currently none with the exception of
your good self perhaps).  An agreement on a format to produce
documentation is pretty meaningless, in my opinion, if no-one is actually
using it to produce documentation.  And maybe its partly to blame as it
is so non-standard and awkward in that format without tools.  The help
authoring tool in hbide may just be the answer to that dilemma, but I
personally think that it is a poor long term choice (the format that is,
not your tools).

> It is easy to convert it to any higher level format.

I agree.  It is clearly structured and I have considered doing it
myself.  But why leave it in that format when it is so easy to convert
to, say, XML which is supported by Harbour "out of the (virtual) box"? 
Or data tables?  Structured so you can have optional parts - eg for hbqt
if you are using that add on.  But I think that some other issues might
warrant consideration too that may not be addressed by the current format
such as the versions of Harbour that a feature applies to etc.

> But this is a point to be considered once actual help is written.

Personally I disagree here.  I think that it needs to be established
before help is written for it to be done well.  And I think that it is
one of the impediments to people actually doing it.

> Time and again we fallback on discussing about formats, nobody actually
start writing.

I agree.  But doesn't that suggest to you that there is something that
isn't quite right?

Above all, please don't take any of the above to be a criticism of anyone
or anything.  Especially not you or any of the developers and maintainers
of Harbour and the many contributions.  Users like me owe so much to you
people.  I would like to spread the word about Harbour but I know people
find it too difficult to get started not because Harbour is difficult but
rather because learning how to use it (documentation) is difficult.  If I
didn't care I wouldn't be spending my time writing messages like this
one.  There is clearly a need out there - look at all the discussion and
that is from people who haven't turned away and are putting in the effort
to at least express an opinion about it.  You know, as the author of
hbide, how difficult it can be to get feedback.  So there is no doubt in
my mind that this area is one in which Harbour could be improved as an
overall product really dramatically.  The people with the experience and
knowledge to produce good documentation are, unfortunately, those who
least need it.  I think there is a way to encourage them but clearly that
has not been hit upon to date.

To me at least, and others may or may not agree, whilst Harbour has moved
forward and added so many new concepts and features to a truly beautiful
language, hanging on to what is effectively a proprietary format in these
days of open standards is out of keeping with the general Harbour
philosophy.

Regards
xProgrammer
Richard Acosta
2010-05-31 15:03:11 UTC
Permalink
El 27/05/2010 10:14 p.m., dougf-***@public.gmane.org escribió:
> Above all, please don't take any of the above to be a criticism of anyone
> or anything. Especially not you or any of the developers and maintainers
> of Harbour and the many contributions.

I have read so much about this lately, that i cannot let this past on.

You should'nt be affraid about what others think.
You should'nt be worry if others think you're critizing when your
intentions are good enough. (at least you know so)
If others don't understand you, that's other's problem and are others
who need to learn reading or use reading comprehension correctly.
If you have good intentions and others missinterpret your words, then
others are who have bad intentions, you just don't have to be sorry,
others are.

> Users like me owe so much to you people.
This is the main trouble, there is too much people who think themselves
are so important and think we, the others are insignificant just because
we don't know as much as they.
So, we do not owe anything to anyone. They owe us respect as a primary
thing, and then we may be grateful (in the way anyone wants to be), but
that's all.
Do not turn you down, you're not less than anyone, you're just on a
different level or approach or branch.

> I would like to spread the word about Harbour but I know people
> find it too difficult to get started not because Harbour is difficult but
> rather because learning how to use it (documentation) is difficult.
I don't think this about harbour, but i do about some other projects
related to it.

> If I didn't care I wouldn't be spending my time writing messages like this one.
>
For some people, it seems if you care, you're a Troll... so please,
don't clarify your intentions, we, the decent and caring people, know
what the true intentions behind the words are.
Machines don't think and psychopaths don't care, so next time, before
clarify anything or when being critisized have that in mind and don't be
sorry, you'll find it does not mathers if you do it or not.

> You know, as the author of hbide, how difficult it can be to get feedback. So there is no doubt in
> my mind that this area is one in which Harbour could be improved as an overall product really dramatically.
>
Here, you have touched a sensitive point, and here are my questions.
For one side, Pritpal says he has'nt received any feedback, so he can't
improve his products.
On the other hand.... i have provided some feedback and some
suggestions, as you're doing and you did... but clearly he does not care
about this feedback, as he thinks feedback has to be always fullfilled
with flowers and congratulations.
So now, i embrace your talk and say
NOT EVERY FEEDBACK HAS TO AGREE WITH WHAT YOU DO.
NOT EVERY CRITICISM HAS TO BE A BAD THING.
As in my country we say, "La crítica es siempre constructiva" "Criticism
is always constructive", if you're doing something wrong, it may help
you improve, if you're doing something right it may help you improve.
To make things get positive or negative, is an approach from the side of
the receiver.

> The people with the experience and knowledge to produce good documentation are, unfortunately, those who
> least need it.
the biggest truth on earth.

> I think there is a way to encourage them but clearly that has not been hit upon to date.
>
Yes, there is a way, is to pay them, that's the price of their
disinteresed effort. That's what they have put very clearly, we don't pay.
> To me at least, and others may or may not agree, whilst Harbour has moved forward and added so many new concepts and features to a truly beautiful language, hanging on to what is effectively a proprietary format in these days of open standards is out of keeping with the general Harbour philosophy.
>
I don't care about using closed source while the product is good enough.
And i really appreciate the existence of open source products, but like
they are good enough as closed source products they also have other
severe shortages and some times as important as the rest of the project.

> Regards
> xProgrammer
>
Regards.
Another xProgrammer.
Agustianes Umbara Suwardi
2010-06-01 00:57:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi Richard,

I think I got your point, too bad some people here don't think the way
you are thinking and, in my opinion, none of them would change their
mind no matter what you say. In short words they will just ignore you.

>> My help is to the good people on this list.
>> Whenever a troll appears is better to get rid of him as soon as
possible.
>>
>>
>> Said that, I will shut my mouth from now on.
>
> Very well said Angel.

Good people? A troll? Very well said? I wonder what's this list all
about.

Regards,


On Mon, 2010-05-31 at 12:03 -0300, Richard Acosta wrote:

> You should'nt be affraid about what others think.
> You should'nt be worry if others think you're critizing when your
> intentions are good enough. (at least you know so)
> If others don't understand you, that's other's problem and are others
> who need to learn reading or use reading comprehension correctly.
> If you have good intentions and others missinterpret your words, then
> others are who have bad intentions, you just don't have to be sorry,
> others are.
>
> > Users like me owe so much to you people.
> This is the main trouble, there is too much people who think themselves
> are so important and think we, the others are insignificant just because
> we don't know as much as they.
> So, we do not owe anything to anyone. They owe us respect as a primary
> thing, and then we may be grateful (in the way anyone wants to be), but
> that's all.
> Do not turn you down, you're not less than anyone, you're just on a
> different level or approach or branch.
>
> > I would like to spread the word about Harbour but I know people
> > find it too difficult to get started not because Harbour is difficult but
> > rather because learning how to use it (documentation) is difficult.
> I don't think this about harbour, but i do about some other projects
> related to it.
>
> > If I didn't care I wouldn't be spending my time writing messages like this one.
> >
> For some people, it seems if you care, you're a Troll... so please,
> don't clarify your intentions, we, the decent and caring people, know
> what the true intentions behind the words are.
> Machines don't think and psychopaths don't care, so next time, before
> clarify anything or when being critisized have that in mind and don't be
> sorry, you'll find it does not mathers if you do it or not.
>
> > You know, as the author of hbide, how difficult it can be to get feedback. So there is no doubt in
> > my mind that this area is one in which Harbour could be improved as an overall product really dramatically.
> >
> Here, you have touched a sensitive point, and here are my questions.
> For one side, Pritpal says he has'nt received any feedback, so he can't
> improve his products.
> On the other hand.... i have provided some feedback and some
> suggestions, as you're doing and you did... but clearly he does not care
> about this feedback, as he thinks feedback has to be always fullfilled
> with flowers and congratulations.
> So now, i embrace your talk and say
> NOT EVERY FEEDBACK HAS TO AGREE WITH WHAT YOU DO.
> NOT EVERY CRITICISM HAS TO BE A BAD THING.
> As in my country we say, "La crítica es siempre constructiva" "Criticism
> is always constructive", if you're doing something wrong, it may help
> you improve, if you're doing something right it may help you improve.
> To make things get positive or negative, is an approach from the side of
> the receiver.
>
> > The people with the experience and knowledge to produce good documentation are, unfortunately, those who
> > least need it.
> the biggest truth on earth.
>
> > I think there is a way to encourage them but clearly that has not been hit upon to date.
> >
> Yes, there is a way, is to pay them, that's the price of their
> disinteresed effort. That's what they have put very clearly, we don't pay.
> > To me at least, and others may or may not agree, whilst Harbour has moved forward and added so many new concepts and features to a truly beautiful language, hanging on to what is effectively a proprietary format in these days of open standards is out of keeping with the general Harbour philosophy.
> >
> I don't care about using closed source while the product is good enough.
> And i really appreciate the existence of open source products, but like
> they are good enough as closed source products they also have other
> severe shortages and some times as important as the rest of the project.
>
> > Regards
> > xProgrammer
> >
> Regards.
> Another xProgrammer.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Harbour-users mailing list (attachment size limit: 40KB)
> Harbour-users-pG8skwman+OtlBvVaVFjCkB+***@public.gmane.org
> http://lists.harbour-project.org/mailman/listinfo/harbour-users
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